I mean...it's true, you know?
#socialism #communism #capitalism #classwar
#brianthompson #LuigiMangione #ceodown #ceomurder #CEOhunt #ceoshooter #ceokiller
@Radical_EgoCom Stop calling them the ruling class - theres no such thing!
There is such thing as a ruling class. Every state has a ruling class. That is the reason states exist, for a ruling class to subject to their will other classes, and in the modern capitalist state the ruling class is the bourgeois class, which uses state power to subject to their will the proletarian class, as well as the other working classes that are slowly being turned into proletarians. This is Marxism 101. I would suggest reading more Marxist theory on the subject.
@Radical_EgoCom I refuse to subscribe to the idea might have been a better choice of words.
It's a fact of life. You choosing not to subscribe to the idea doesn't make it not true. That would just be self-deceptive.
@Radical_EgoCom It embodies the will to see it not be true - and the hope of an opportunity to help make that happen ;)
@RavenLuni @Radical_EgoCom So long as people are on the same general page, I don't care too much about details, but I definitely agree with Cat.
Beyond just the ruling class, a clear objective is the abolition of class as a whole. That, however, is not something which can ever be achieved without acknowledging current class antagonisms. Proceeding with rhetoric and strategies that refuse to engage with class, while our material reality is so clearly impacted by it, unfortunately seems very counter productive. It is desirable to the bourgeoisie for their position as a ruling class to be obscured. As a consequence, most people right now already have effectively no grasp on capitalist classes, and any concept of "the elite" is usually misguided at best. We want people to become more aware of class so we can build class solidarity among the proletariat. We don't want people to preemptively reject class on an ideological level, and subsequently become incapable of rejecting class on an actionable level.
To put it simply, if you dismiss the reality of the bourgeois ruling class, you also are dismissing targeted resistance against them as mere individualistic violence.
@facsimile_willows I was having the exact same debate with a buddy of mine yesterday. I was arguing that "class" is not a useful construct because there's no way to define who belongs to the bourgeois or the proles with some sort of mathematical formula.
@jubei capitalist classes are socially instituted based on things like property and labour dynamics, so I'm not certain of what a mathematical formula would add, nor why the absence of one would make class a useless construct.
ex. There is no mathematical formula to denote what genre a song belongs to, but clearly those genres exist and are useful.
@facsimile_willows My father is an employee but also owns some farmland that somebody cultivates and they share half of the output. Is my father bourgeois or proletarian? Based on Marx's definitions, since he receives payment for simply owning means of production, he is a capitalist. So which is it?
@jubei I would advise simply reading through some of Marx's definitions and other leftist theory yourself lol. There's only so much that can be communicated through a comment. Either way, capitalism progressively distributes the population under it into the classes of bourgeois and proletariat, but that doesn't mean each individual person exists solely in a binary. I'm not sure if it would typically be described in this way, but if it helps you, it may be easier to understand it like a bimodal distribution, in which the intermediate area--such as that which the petite bourgeoisie inhabits--is constantly under threat of collapsing into the proletariat.
I do just want to reinforce this though, just because you may feel confused about about how classes work, or your family's class position, that doesn't mean they aren't useful constructs. Their value has been proven numerous times throughout history in the many theories and predictions that leftists have made using class analysis, which have and likely will continue to be confirmed with our current economic developments.
@facsimile_willows you said "Their value has been proven numerous times throughout history in the many theories and predictions that leftists have made". Could I trouble you for some examples please?
@jubei No. Not to be disrespectful to you, but I don't have spare energy in me to continue playing a game of 20 questions lol. There are other priorities I have which leave me with little to no energy as is.
You seem to be looking for very specific answers, and to be frank I don't think you'll satisfy your curiosity through this type of discussion. If you want those answers, the best way to get them will be by reading the material yourself. Lots of leftist books about class are available for free on the Marxist internet archive. I'm not sure of exactly how familiar you are with leftist theory currently, but assuming no familiarity, an easy start would be by reading through the Communist Manifesto (with the Principles of Communism as a supplementary text), then continuing on to Capital for those more in depth answers and predictions you want to see.
If your learning process is more of a social one than an individual one, or if discussion is just an important part of your learning process, then maybe try out joining a leftist book club? Or even just reading some stuff with friends and discussing it?